From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id BAA03439; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 01:19:44 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA03289 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 01:19:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from shell5.ba.best.com (shell5.ba.best.com [206.184.139.136]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.11.1/8.10.0) with ESMTP id f5DNJfT12510 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 01:19:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (bpr@localhost) by shell5.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) with ESMTP id QAA09833; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:19:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Rogoff To: David Gurr cc: skaller@ozemail.com.au, caml-list@inria.fr, leary@nwlink.com Subject: Re: [Caml-list] ocaml complexity In-Reply-To: <200106132104.OAA08015@mrs.mrs.med.ge.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk On Wed, 13 Jun 2001, David Gurr wrote: > > From owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Wed Jun 13 13:36:15 2001 > > From: leary@nwlink.com > > To: Brian Rogoff , caml > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 08:21:27AM -0700, Brian Rogoff wrote: > > > Perhaps we users should start writing > > > tutorials, rather than asking INRIAns, as I'd rather that they work on > > > growing the language. > > > > Aye. Would Michel Mauny be agreeable to having his "Functional > > Programming Using Caml Light" be the starting point for a "Learning OCaml" > > project, say on sourceforge? Are there any better tutorials on ML It depends on the group that you're targeting for the tutorial, of course. I think writing from scratch is a fine idea. I think a tutorial should be aimed at getting (C++/Java/Perl) programmers up to speed quickly so it would probably be a bit boring for the type theory heavy crowd. > I assume you mean Caml rather than SML Borrow from good SML tutorials like Robert Harper's too I say. > > that > > might be borrowed from with permission? > > > > > The intro in the HOL-Light manual is quite good. Also quite good is: > > http://cristal.inria.fr/~remy/isia/ This is in French, which would be a problem for a lot of programmers that I know. Interestingly, I seem to have picked up enough written French from reading this list (with a dictionary and some phrasebooks of course) that I could read almost all of this. If Didier would like to make the TeX available, I could take a stab at translating this. He has also written http://cristal.inria.fr/~remy/cours/appsem/ which I think is just wonderful, but I don't think its for the beginning OCaml'er. It's for a more sophisticated programmer, and delves into type theory issues. John Max Skaller then writes > Brian Rogoff wrote: > > When OCaml becomes so popular that it one of these standards > > organizations is involved, there will be significantly less ability to > > make incompatible changes. > > I like your positive approach > > "When Ocaml becomes so popular .." :-) I believe with perfect faith in the coming of OCaml. > > Anyways, more growth is good. If OCaml reaches Python's popularity, > > that would be great. > But Python too is severely constrained by backwards > compatibility requirements. It is the main reason I gave up on it > as a serious language: it is beyond fixing. That's true, but there were certainly some pretty major cleanups in Python with respect to its scoping that I think make it a much better language. Of course, it's not OCaml, but it's clearly popular enough that lots of people want it on their resumes. OCaml is not there yet. > OTOH, Ocaml doesn't really _need_ fixing :-) There are a few places where I think improvements can be made. From what I've read, INRIA is working on all of them. > > Perhaps we users should start writing > > tutorials, rather than asking INRIAns, as I'd rather that they work on > > growing the language. > > I'd love to, but the language isn't popular enough for me > to make enough money selling books on it: I'd make a respectable income > from C++ books, but I have lost enthusiasm for promoting it. I was thinking more of writing free, web available tutorials to increase the user base. That needs to happen to bring more people on board. Only then will there be a big market for OCaml books in Anglophone nations. In other words, Ask not what the OCaml community can do for you, ask what you can do for the OCaml community. > I blame Ocaml for that. Catch-22. I feel your pain. It's tough to go back to C++ or Java, isn't it? -- Brian ------------------- Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr