From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail4-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail4-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.105]) by yquem.inria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 186F2BCA9 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 10:43:18 +0100 (CET) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgMBALCQ/UzRVdg2kGdsb2JhbACbJwGICwgVAQECCQkMBxEEHogtngWJaoIYhTUuiFYBAQMFhUQEinGJNA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.59,310,1288566000"; d="scan'208";a="82166373" Received: from mail-qw0-f54.google.com ([209.85.216.54]) by mail4-smtp-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP; 07 Dec 2010 10:43:17 +0100 Received: by qwj9 with SMTP id 9so7885740qwj.27 for ; Tue, 07 Dec 2010 01:43:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:mime-version:sender:received :in-reply-to:references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=ZqIwq7J98hGUVh0Mw0IuI3J6+HJOWHdU2biqVoTlsCc=; b=fE0SXftY3yW/Zin6pY1iquzYnk1V+eHVaoINy90DQH37Myuch304uG8Aooj2uf2nYz GKVME9rjVPdaMubgJvp+mgOKn+l5XZZypmmcL/PIpEjl4x4J8KaF+1DIS5CYaAkjxf2G zOoHvnQf614YoytnMF++aScORzdkRboRMI3ys= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; b=kUwDrcn7nlXPJs/neoRHGf9alVmEWSv5++xrZlVJSQ/0sYvaTMYNBzTK8xWIhs8I26 XFU9McSb+Vub5jGZNOqUpHApQ+9knrdlAGFblN2E+Na8VInsyln9g9CR9j1MwOD4SMPC a6Edernzeo7bQDwbfJqyv5nPfZlZsp7QNpil8= Received: by 10.229.224.67 with SMTP id in3mr5374790qcb.236.1291714996491; Tue, 07 Dec 2010 01:43:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: gabriel.scherer@gmail.com Received: by 10.229.23.139 with HTTP; Tue, 7 Dec 2010 01:42:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4CFDFEA5.3000900@frisch.fr> References: <20101203200646.GA7445@malaquias.DHCP-GERAL> <6C7D3CF0-5C04-4E51-939F-5086244DA055@inria.fr> <4CFD2259.6060200@gmail.com> <4CFDEE7E.8030000@frisch.fr> <4CFDFEA5.3000900@frisch.fr> From: gasche Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 10:42:56 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7eO86eUxQBMUqtO-KDsQ8p7brPE Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Re: Pre-compiled ocaml binary for windows To: Alain Frisch Cc: Sylvain Le Gall , caml-list@inria.fr Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016363b92508456cf0496ced594 X-Spam: no; 0.00; pre-compiled:01 ocaml:01 frisch:01 frisch:01 toplevel:01 labltk:01 toplevel:01 ocaml:01 ledit:01 emacs:01 pre-compiled:01 emacs:01 ocaml-mode:01 syntax:01 compiler:01 --0016363b92508456cf0496ced594 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Alain Frisch wrote: > The graphical toplevel does not depend on labltk, so the two issues are > really unrelated. For crashes with the OCamlWin.exe, I was thinking abou= t > http://caml.inria.fr/mantis/view.php?id=3D4399 and > http://caml.inria.fr/mantis/view.php?id=3D3052, but this might be pure FU= D. > The real problem is that nobody seems interested enough in this graphical > toplevel to put serious work on it. > I beg to differ. In my experience, the Graphics module is a wonderful tool to get non-programming beginners interested in OCaml. I have been in the position of teaching OCaml to beginners, and the single thing they remember and found *fun* was displaying the mandelbrot fractal, and then playing wit= h different color functions to get fancy results. I absolutely agree that Graphics is not the most important thing in OCaml, and would be very happy to have a decent OCaml installer without it, but still I think in a second time making it work would be well worth it. I will probably look for ledit (or lwt toplevel) which seems a better >> alternative to emacs (too heavy too install). >> > > If your hope is to make OCaml accessible to beginner hobbyists under > Windows (I assume this is the primary audience for pre-compiled binaries)= , > you might still want to provide easy ways to use code editors. Providing > easy access only to the toplevel (be it graphical, or with a line-editor) > might be a turnoff for beginners. In most French "classes pr=E9paratoires", students learn programming by -- after a quick exposure to Maple, to be sure they don't risk learning too much functional programming -- typing code directly in the toplevel. Advanced software engineering there means "writing code in a notepad so tha= t the work isn't lost when the toplevel crashes". But it's not directly relevant, as they still use Caml Light. I agree that an Emacs integration would be useful, but maybe it could also provide an ocaml-mode for one of the simpler, less powerful editors with syntax highlighting and a shortcut to call the compiler. In GNU/Linux land, those would be Gedit and Kate; I'm not sure what Windows people use now. (There was also a discussion of Eclipse plugin, but I suspect this isn't ready and would be a lot of work, so it's probably better to separate the two efforts) --0016363b92508456cf0496ced594 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On= Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Alain Frisch=A0<alain@frisch.fr>=A0wrote:
The graphical toplevel does not depend on labltk, so the = two issues are really unrelated. =A0For crashes with the OCamlWin.exe, I wa= s thinking about=A0http://caml.inria.fr/mantis/view.php?id=3D4399=A0a= nd=A0http://caml.inria.fr/mantis/view.php?id=3D3052, but this might b= e pure FUD. The real problem is that nobody seems interested enough in this= graphical toplevel to put serious work on it.

I beg to differ. In my experience, the Gra= phics module is a wonderful tool to get non-programming beginners intereste= d in OCaml. I have been in the position of teaching OCaml to beginners, and= the single thing they remember and found *fun* was displaying the mandelbr= ot fractal, and then playing with different color functions to get fancy re= sults.

I absolutely agree that Graphics is not the most import= ant thing in OCaml, and would be very happy to have a decent OCaml installe= r without it, but still I think in a second time making it work would be we= ll worth it.


I will probably look for ledit (or lwt toplevel) which seems a better
al= ternative to emacs (too heavy too install).

If yo= ur hope is to make OCaml accessible to beginner hobbyists under Windows (I = assume this is the primary audience for pre-compiled binaries), you might s= till want to provide easy ways to use code editors. Providing easy access o= nly to the toplevel (be it graphical, or with a line-editor) might be a tur= noff for beginners.

In most French "classes pr=E9paratoires", stu= dents learn programming by -- after a quick exposure to Maple, to be sure t= hey don't risk learning too much functional programming -- typing code = directly in the toplevel. Advanced software engineering there means "w= riting code in a notepad so that the work isn't lost when the toplevel = crashes". But it's not directly relevant, as they still use Caml L= ight.

I agree that an Emacs integration would be useful, but = maybe it could also provide an ocaml-mode for one of the simpler, less powe= rful editors with syntax highlighting and a shortcut to call the compiler. = In GNU/Linux land, those would be Gedit and Kate; I'm not sure what Win= dows people use now.
(There was also a discussion of Eclipse plugin, but I suspect this isn= 't ready and would be a lot of work, so it's probably better to sep= arate the two efforts)
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