From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail1-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.82]) by walapai.inria.fr (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id p2VFqXVZ022588 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 17:52:33 +0200 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AuQCAEWilE3RVdi2kGdsb2JhbACeVAGGcQgUAQEBAQkJDQcUBCGIeRubV4pWgiOEeC+IXAEBAwWFZgSNEYcEgg06 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.63,276,1299452400"; d="scan'208";a="104154144" Received: from mail-qy0-f182.google.com ([209.85.216.182]) by mail1-smtp-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-SHA; 31 Mar 2011 17:52:27 +0200 Received: by qyk27 with SMTP id 27so2151790qyk.6 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 08:52:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=QZQ0Ah38AJ+buvDkRAgYSytPd3A0vPrINOUunbLSR4Q=; b=HCa3eUE/ShR75NSDFRe7lyJOPfay2MR2IIop+Aba0SMlkkwJr7d6psM5Acw7VQUFhU QvUjNs9O8e9XRy7SWjyTjy8/tYrhAeYr3PUFtXpWV+tXshNozZrOcwAf59TnU/LD41b4 /gIdkDeOa4pr/TkpqlnxwWHo6N6YcrhhE+b0s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=YHnrO5wbp6JH2I4+6WG54yvutRmfWu0tNdiAM1kmWXjjhkLZe+Na1WfGzhhxEt2Zy2 iWOx2P+xCVlOlzw6EzuPhWmByKMVsbknRz+XPJ11oThUVyDGqadxlcEDYyM7RLODjbUh QZeCgFCg6qjAP6MFTI0hQ8dYnAra5XQjUiKtk= Received: by 10.229.1.234 with SMTP id 42mr2376242qcg.91.1301586746166; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 08:52:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.235.146 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 08:52:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4D9328A0.3020504@wp.pl> <25BB4625-7DB0-47E2-A378-5F121EB41EB8@gmail.com> <6FE49D01-1E57-4AB5-A9A7-5BEEFFDC59C9@philou.ch> From: Gabriel Scherer Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 17:52:06 +0200 Message-ID: To: Pierre-Alexandre Voye Cc: Philippe Strauss , caml-list@inria.fr Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0014853a0216a6500f049fc9470e Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Re: Arithmetic operations --0014853a0216a6500f049fc9470e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just a quick clarification : Sylvain has been doing great work for the OCaml community for some years. > With the help of other tools (ocamlfind, godi, ocamlbuild...), the Ocamlc= ore > Forge, etc., it is now more and more easy to use, share and deploy OCaml > code. > My wording awkwardly suggests that all the mentioned tools are Ocamlcore projects. This is not true : - ocamlfind and godi are tools from Gerd Stolpmann and have been around for much longer; if you want to help the ocaml ecosystem, it's a good idea to begin by writing META files for all your released projects; they are very simple to write from an existing example, and very useful in combination with ocamlfind - ocamlbuild is from Nicolas Pouillard and Berke Durak; it is a simple and extensible compilation system for OCaml, but relatively new; other build systems for OCaml exist, such as OCamlMakefile (a generic GNU Makefile to help write usual makefiles for OCaml program) and OMake. On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 2:19 PM, Gabriel Scherer wrote: > 2011/3/31 Philippe Strauss > >> So, I think INRIA could continue to work on a good compiler, and company >> which make business whith ocaml could discuss between them to agreed on >> standards, via Ocamlcore for instance, with the agreement of Xavier Lero= y's >> team of course. >> > > Xavier Leroy has already said, for example during the former OCaml > Meetings, that they would be happy to link to a more complete "OCaml > distribution" provided by the community, including the core "INRIA lib" a= nd > some more. I think there is no clear consensus right now on what that wou= ld > be, and that's why it hasn't been done yet, but there are several orthogo= nal > efforts in that direction (more on that later). > > > 2011/3/31 Philippe Strauss > >> maybe batteries and janestreet core (to name nowadays alternatives) have >> too big ambitions: extension library aside INRIA's standard lib would ha= ve >> more users than a complete alternative. >> > [...] >> > I think it would be important and interesting to create a little >> organization which discuss bout a standard lib and would begin making a >> synthesis of all these "standard" library. >> > > Batteries is meant to be an extension of INRIA's stdlib, as a continuation > of the [Extlib] effort. Great care is taken that a code using the existing > standard library should be able to replace it with Batteries without > changing a line of code. If something breaks when converting to batteries, > it should be filed as a bug. > > [Extlib] http://code.google.com/p/ocaml-extlib/ > > The Core library from Jane Street has liberated itself from this > conservative position. Programs should be written directly using Core, and > it is not in principle easy to transition from INRIA's stdlib to Core (of > course you could include both and be careful to avoid conflicts with > "open"). The advantages are plenty: it allows Janestreet to provide a > coherent set of packages and make different design choices (arguably some > aspects of INRIA's stdlib are more "non choices"). On the other hand, it > means that direct "synthesis" of both efforts (Core and Batteries) is not > likely. There is also the difference that Batteries is a community-driven > effort, while Core is more internal to Jane Street; they would probably > welcome contributions, but their internal code is naturally their top > priority, and the external release model has been rather sporadic for now. > > > Le 31 mars 2011 =E0 10:19, Pierre-Alexandre Voye: > >> I think it would be important and interesting to create a little >> organization which discuss bout a standard lib and would begin making a >> synthesis of all these "standard" library. >> > > After the first OCaml Meeting, there has been some discussion on the Cocan > Wiki, but I think the site is down currently. > > http://le-gall.net/sylvain+violaine/blog/index.php?post/2008/01/30/36-oca= mlmeeting-in-paris-debian-summary > > > 2011/3/31 Philippe Strauss > >> the way you can get haskell packaged easily, on the contrary, as some big >> appeal. > > > Sylvain Le Gall has been working on a CPAN-like repository for OCaml, usi= ng > his "oasis" distribution tool: > http://oasis.forge.ocamlcore.org/oasis-db.html > > Sylvain has been doing great work for the OCaml community for some years. > With the help of other tools (ocamlfind, godi, ocamlbuild...), the Ocamlc= ore > Forge, etc., it is now more and more easy to use, share and deploy OCaml > code. Of course, there still are a lot of rough edges, but the only way to > go further is that the community (yes, you!) try to use those tools, > popularize them, and also report feedback on what could be improved. > > For a very long time, using OCaml has been a joyful but solitary activity. > If you want a more vibrant community, the only thing to do is to do your > part of the work as you would need the others to do. Set a standard, so t= hat > things that are now rare are taken for granted in the future. Nobody, exc= ept > maybe Sylvain, has the devotion to work full-time on the small details th= at > will improve things in the long run, and this is ok. Yes, writing an oasis > file (or even a META) or contributing an obvious function to Batteries is > tedious and certainly less sexy that a lot of things you're working on. B= ut > this won't happen magically. > > > > > On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Pierre-Alexandre Voye < > ontologiae@gmail.com> wrote: > >> 2011/3/31 Philippe Strauss >> >>> >>> Le 31 mars 2011 =E0 10:19, Pierre-Alexandre Voye a =E9crit : >>> >>> It's funny, because I'm studying why language succeed or not, for my M1 >>> dissertation (M1 Management), and it's one of the big factor, among oth= ers, >>> of sucess. >>> Ocaml is highly expressive, so you could turn around, but it's a big >>> problem. >>> >>> I think it would be important and interesting to create a little >>> organization which discuss bout a standard lib and would begin making a >>> synthesis of all these "standard" library. >>> >>> >>> Personally I'm not that unhappy with the standard lib shipped by INRIA. >>> >>> maybe batteries and janestreet core (to name nowadays alternatives) have >>> too big ambitions: extension library aside INRIA's standard lib would h= ave >>> more users than a complete alternative. >>> >>> the way you can get haskell packaged easily, on the contrary, as some b= ig >>> appeal. >>> >>> >>> I think INRIA, and in particular the Xavier Leroy's team, make what they >> can. Their work isn't to maintain OCaml but mainly to do research. >> So, I think INRIA could continue to work on a good compiler, and company >> which make business whith ocaml could discuss between them to agreed on >> standards, via Ocamlcore for instance, with the agreement of Xavier Lero= y's >> team of course. >> >> >> -- >> --------------------- >> Isaac Project - http://www.lisaac.org/ >> > > --0014853a0216a6500f049fc9470e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just a quick clarification :

Sylvain has been doing great work for the OCaml communit= y for some=20 years. With the help of other tools (ocamlfind, godi, ocamlbuild...),=20 the Ocamlcore Forge, etc., it is now more and more easy to use, share=20 and deploy OCaml code.

My wording awkwardly sugges= ts that all the mentioned tools are Ocamlcore projects. This is not true :<= br>- ocamlfind and godi are tools from Gerd Stolpmann and have been around = for much longer; if you want to help the ocaml ecosystem, it's a good i= dea to begin by writing META files for all your released projects; they are= very simple to write from an existing example, and very useful in combinat= ion with ocamlfind
- ocamlbuild is from Nicolas Pouillard and Berke Durak; it is a simple and = extensible compilation system for OCaml, but relatively new; other build sy= stems for OCaml exist, such as OCamlMakefile (a generic GNU Makefile to hel= p write usual makefiles for OCaml program) and OMake.


On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 2:19 PM, G= abriel Scherer <gabriel.scherer@gmail.com> wrote:
2011/3/31 Philippe Strauss <ph= ilou@philou.ch>
So, I think INRIA could continue to work on a good compiler, and company which make business whith ocaml could discuss between them to agreed on standards, via Ocamlcore for instance, with the agreement of Xavier=20 Leroy's team of course.
Xavier Leroy has already said, for example during the former OCaml Meetin= gs, that they would be happy to link to a more complete "OCaml distrib= ution" provided by the community, including the core "INRIA lib&q= uot; and some more. I think there is no clear consensus right now on what t= hat would be, and that's why it hasn't been done yet, but there are= several orthogonal efforts in that direction (more on that later).


2011/3/31 Philippe Strauss <philou@philou.ch>
maybe batteries and janestreet core (to name nowadays alternatives) have too big ambitions: extension library aside INRIA's standard lib= =20 would have more users than a complete alternative.
=
= [...]
I think it would b= e important and interesting to create a little organization which discuss bout a standard lib and=20 would begin making a synthesis of all these "standard" library.

Batteries is meant to be an extension of INRIA's stdlib, as= a continuation of the [Extlib] effort. Great care is taken that a code usi= ng the existing standard library should be able to replace it with Batterie= s without changing a line of code. If something breaks when converting to b= atteries, it should be filed as a bug.

=A0[Extlib] http://code.google.com/p/ocaml-extlib/

The Core libr= ary from Jane Street has liberated itself from this conservative position. = Programs should be written directly using Core, and it is not in principle = easy to transition from INRIA's stdlib to Core (of course you could inc= lude both and be careful to avoid conflicts with "open"). The adv= antages are plenty: it allows Janestreet to provide a coherent set of packa= ges and make different design choices (arguably some aspects of INRIA's= stdlib are more "non choices"). On the other hand, it means that= direct "synthesis" of both efforts (Core and Batteries) is not l= ikely. There is also the difference that Batteries is a community-driven ef= fort, while Core is more internal to Jane Street; they would probably welco= me contributions, but their internal code is naturally their top priority, = and the external release model has been rather sporadic for now.


Le 31 mars 2011 =E0 10:19, Pierre-Alexandre Voye:
I think = it would be important and interesting to create a little organization which discuss bout a standard lib and=20 would begin making a synthesis of all these "standard" library.

After the first OCaml Meeting, there has been= some discussion on the Cocan Wiki, but I think the site is down currently.=
=A0 http://le= -gall.net/sylvain+violaine/blog/index.php?post/2008/01/30/36-ocamlmeeting-i= n-paris-debian-summary


2011/3/31 Philippe Strauss <phil= ou@philou.ch>
the way you can get haskell packaged easily, on the contrary, as some big a= ppeal.

Sylvain Le Gall has been working on a CPA= N-like repository for OCaml, using his "oasis" distribution tool:=
=A0=A0 http://oasis.forge.ocamlcore.org/oasis-db.html
=
Sylvain has been doing great work for the OCaml community for some year= s. With the help of other tools (ocamlfind, godi, ocamlbuild...), the Ocaml= core Forge, etc., it is now more and more easy to use, share and deploy OCa= ml code. Of course, there still are a lot of rough edges, but the only way = to go further is that the community (yes, you!) try to use those tools, pop= ularize them, and also report feedback on what could be improved.

For a very long time, using OCaml has been a joyful but solitary activi= ty. If you want a more vibrant community, the only thing to do is to do you= r part of the work as you would need the others to do. Set a standard, so t= hat things that are now rare are taken for granted in the future. Nobody, e= xcept maybe Sylvain, has the devotion to work full-time on the small detail= s that will improve things in the long run, and this is ok. Yes, writing an= oasis file (or even a META) or contributing an obvious function to Batteri= es is tedious and certainly less sexy that a lot of things you're worki= ng on. But this won't happen magically.




On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Pierre-Alexandre Voye <on= tologiae@gmail.com> wrote:
2011/3/31 Philippe Strauss <philou@philou.c= h>

Le 31 mars 2011 =E0 10:19= , Pierre-Alexandre Voye a =E9crit :

It's funny, because I'm studying why language succeed or not, for = my M1 dissertation (M1 Management), and it's one of the big factor, amo= ng others, of sucess.
Ocaml is highly expressive, so you could turn around, but it's a big pr= oblem.

I think it would be important and interesting to create a little organi= zation which discuss bout a standard lib and would begin making a synthesis= of all these "standard" library.

Personally I'm not that unhappy with the standard lib shippe= d by INRIA.

maybe batteries and janestreet core (t= o name nowadays alternatives) have too big ambitions: extension library asi= de INRIA's standard lib would have more users than a complete alternati= ve.

the way you can get haskell packaged easily, on the con= trary, as some big appeal.


I think INRIA, and in particular the Xavier Leroy's team, m= ake what they can. Their work isn't to maintain OCaml but mainly to do = research.
So, I think INRIA could continue to work on a good compiler, and company wh= ich make business whith ocaml could discuss between them to agreed on stand= ards, via Ocamlcore for instance, with the agreement of Xavier Leroy's = team of course.


--
---------------------
I= saac Project - http://= www.lisaac.org/


--0014853a0216a6500f049fc9470e--