From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA31189; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:23:30 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA31931 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:23:29 +0100 (MET) X-SPAM-Warning: Sending machine is listed in blackholes.five-ten-sg.com Received: from web41213.mail.yahoo.com (web41213.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.46]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i2K6NRHd010117 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:23:28 +0100 Message-ID: <20040320062327.79757.qmail@web41213.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.242.203.84] by web41213.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:23:27 PST Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:23:27 -0800 (PST) From: Vasili Galchin Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) To: Matt Gushee , caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Cc: vasiliocaml@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <20040318085638.GA11753@swordfish> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 pragmatic:01 gushee:01 mgushee:01 havenrock:01 2004:99 posix:01 tad:99 suitably:01 pressures:99 vaguely:01 fragile:01 camlp:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Keywords: X-UID: 260 Matt, Thank you! I was away for a bit. You are not being grandiose at all. When I started the discussion about "Unix completeness", I was tactfully (maybe not so tactfully) asking why OCaml is not like Linux??!! Your metaphor is exactly where I was going. I really want to see to a functional language make it into the mainstream (i.e. I have programmed in imperative languages all of my 28 year career ... nothing has changed). After looking at various FPL code bases, I really believe taht OCaml has a shot assuming we all take the challenge seriously (I have been in American industry for 26 years ... which sadly is far too pragmatic and conservative to change). Regards, Vasili --- Matt Gushee wrote: > On Wed, Mar 17, 2004 at 04:19:05PM -0800, Vasili > Galchin wrote: > > > > and so, those of us who have created bindings > for > > > other Posix functions > > > should > > > try to work with them to get our code merged. > This > > Eric, it sounds to me that you and I are on > the > > same page, i.e. in total agreement. What prompted > my > > posting is that I feel a tad frustrated when I > read > > code that I believe is very good (e.g. Georgi's > ipv6 > > socket code where he split socket stuff out from > > unix.ml by itself making readibility much better > and > > esaier multiple people to work and not having big > > merge problems) and I hear about other code. In > both > > cases, these new code seems to have been sitting > > around and not code reviewed and put into CVS, > where > > it should be. Also there is a danger of some > > divergence because someone will use some of this > > non-checked in code and it becomes defacto > standard. > > So, OCaml community, how do we move forward to get > > this new processed and potentially merged into the > > mainline. > > (Sorry about the grandiose title. I have nothing > suitably profound to > say ... just couldn't think of a better way to > express the subject.) > > I wonder if it is possible to persuade INRIA to do > anything. > > I have no inside information on the process at > INRIA, but my impression > from reading this list over the past year or so is: > > 1) The OCaml team at INRIA care about the > community, but there are too > few of them to meet all our needs, and I suppose > their work is also > subject to institutional pressures that we are > only vaguely aware > of. Maybe they are struggling to keep enough > resources for OCaml > work. > > 2) INRIA as an institution finds it convenient to > release OCaml as open > source, but doesn't really care about the > community. They benignly > neglect everything that doesn't relate to their > research goals. > > 3) OCaml-as-project (i.e. I'm talking about how > OCaml is developed, not > what it is) is a fragile enterprise. E.g., one > developer leaves, and > the future of Camlp4 becomes uncertain. Not > good. > > I'm not saying you should give up hope just yet, but > maybe it's time to > consider alternatives. > > What if there were an "OCaml Community Library > Project"--a group outside > INRIA that would take responsibility for extending > and perhaps partially > replacing the standard library--maybe a bit like the > current ExtLib > project, only more extensive (BTW, why are there two > ExtLibs?? One of > you change the name, please! Thank you.). Maybe if > that project showed > itself to be responsible, credible, reliable, etc. > etc., after a while > it could become the de facto standard library. > > The idealistic scenario is a division of labor > wherein INRIA continues > to develop the parts of OCaml that are interesting > to them, while other > parts (of more interest to those of us working to > create practical > and/or commercial software) would be taken over by > the community. > > I can't say whether this idea is feasible, or > whether INRIA would be > willing to go along with it, but maybe it's > something to consider. > > -- > Matt Gushee When a nation follows > the Way, > Englewood, Colorado, USA Horses bear manure > through > mgushee@havenrock.com its fields; > http://www.havenrock.com/ When a nation ignores > the Way, > Horses bear soldiers > through > its streets. > > --Lao Tzu (Peter Merel, > trans.) > > ------------------- > To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr > Archives: http://caml.inria.fr > Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: > http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ > Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? 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