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From: Richard Jones <rich@annexia.org>
Cc: caml-list@inria.fr
Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:56:50 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20040318135650.GB23915@redhat.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <200403181312.i2IDCaDI010697@nerd-xing.mit.edu>

On Thu, Mar 18, 2004 at 08:12:36AM -0500, John Carr wrote:
> 1. Nobody else knows the language.
> 2. It doesn't run on our platform.
> 3. It will break and we can't get support.

These things will always be a problem until OCaml becomes (to use a
marketing term) a "whole product".  This means that it has a full
suite of supporting skills and documentation.  There are currently two
books, and a few web tutorials.  For OCaml to become a whole product
we'd need to see a few shelves full of books at the local bookstore,
and specialists in each city offering support, and major external
companies signing on.

Nevertheless, these things happen: if no one was ever an early
adopter, then nothing new would ever happen!  Perhaps your company
isn't ready to be an early adopter for risky new technologies.  Others
will adopt, and the whole product may come about eventually from this.

But, the structure of OCaml development might prevent this from
happening in the long run.  The timescales for a product to turn from
early adopter to widely adopted whole product are on the order of ten
years.  [ http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000017.html ]
(It's no accident that Ruby is about ten years old, and for the first
time there's now a shelf of books on Ruby at Foyles on Charing Cross
Road).  Because of these long timescales, I believe that the process
is very sensitive to small differences along the way.  Potentially, a
small change in the OCaml development process might either kill off
adoption of OCaml, or might make it more rapid.

To give you an example of this thinking: computer languages are in a
constant race with each other to add new features.  In the last decade
I personally have gone from C compilers where the most innovative
feature might have been support for threads, or an ANSI-compatible
string library, all the way to languages like Perl where in a few
lines of code you can download a web page, parse it into a DOM and
insert the results into a database, or display it in an embedded Gtk
Mozilla widget.  The number and range of libraries that you need today
in a new computer language is just staggering to compete with what is
already available in the likes of Perl or Java SDK or .NET (Microsoft
was able to throw thousands of developers at the problem which is why
they created the whole of .NET in relatively few years - no other
company on earth has that luxury).

This means that if OCaml's development process is, on average, just
slightly slower than the average (however that would be measured) then
OCaml will NEVER overtake other languages and become widely adopted.
In this sense, an open, rapid development model is vital, and an
unresponsive team at INRIA could kill adoption, and eventually any
chances the language has of becoming widely used.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones. http://www.annexia.org/ http://www.j-london.com/
Merjis Ltd. http://www.merjis.com/ - improving website return on investment
http://www.YouUnlimited.co.uk/ - management courses

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  reply	other threads:[~2004-03-18 13:56 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 127+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2004-03-09 17:30 [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library Vasili Galchin
2004-03-09 17:55 ` Richard Jones
2004-03-09 18:11   ` Shawn Wagner
2004-03-15 19:44     ` Eric Stokes
2004-03-16  5:32       ` Vasili Galchin
2004-03-17 15:52         ` Eric Stokes
2004-03-18  0:19           ` Vasili Galchin
2004-03-18  8:56             ` OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Matt Gushee
2004-03-18 10:31               ` Richard Jones
2004-03-18 11:22                 ` Nicolas Cannasse
2004-03-18 11:18                   ` Wolfgang Müller
2004-03-18 11:55                   ` Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons
2004-03-18 12:42                     ` Benjamin Geer
2004-03-18 14:12                       ` Xavier Leroy
2004-03-18 17:18                         ` Benjamin Geer
2004-03-18 17:56                           ` Alex Baretta
2004-03-18 18:33                             ` Markus Mottl
2004-03-19 10:58                               ` [Caml-list] Structuring the Caml community Christophe TROESTLER
2004-03-19 18:29                                 ` Yamagata Yoriyuki
2004-03-18 23:44                             ` [Caml-list] Structuring the Caml community (Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar) Alain.Frisch
2004-03-19  8:36                               ` Oliver Bandel
2004-03-19 19:03                               ` Eric Stokes
2004-03-19 22:34                                 ` Benjamin Geer
2004-03-19 22:58                                   ` Matthew O'Connor
2004-03-19 23:15                                   ` Eric Stokes
2004-03-19 23:23                                     ` Karl Zilles
2004-03-20 10:10                                 ` ocaml.org (was: Re: [Caml-list] Structuring the Caml community (Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar)) Richard Jones
     [not found]                                   ` <Pine.LNX.4.44.0403201143290.2678-100000@lcmpc4.epfl.ch>
2004-03-20 10:47                                     ` Richard Jones
2004-03-18 23:41                         ` OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Gerd Stolpmann
2004-03-19  0:47                           ` Kenneth Knowles
2004-03-19  8:54                             ` Richard Jones
2004-03-19 12:29                             ` Gerd Stolpmann
2004-03-19 12:44                           ` [Caml-list] Proposed community structure (was Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar) Benjamin Geer
2004-03-19 17:30                             ` [Caml-list] " Gerd Stolpmann
2004-03-20  6:30                               ` Matt Gushee
2004-03-20  6:49                                 ` Vasili Galchin
2004-03-20 13:19                                   ` Ville-Pertti Keinonen
2004-03-20 19:03                                     ` Vasili Galchin
2004-03-20 11:23                               ` Benjamin Geer
2004-03-20 16:46                                 ` Gerd Stolpmann
2004-03-20 13:07                           ` [Caml-list] Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar Dmitry Bely
2004-03-20 15:55                             ` Gerd Stolpmann
2004-03-20 20:09                               ` brogoff
2004-03-18 12:55                     ` Alex Baretta
2004-03-19  8:54                     ` OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Sven Luther
2004-03-19  9:12                       ` Sven Luther
2004-03-18 13:12                   ` John Carr
2004-03-18 13:56                     ` Richard Jones [this message]
2004-03-18 18:41                       ` Oliver Bandel
2004-03-18 20:10                         ` John Carr
2004-03-18 23:20                           ` Richard Jones
2004-03-19  1:30                             ` Jacques Garrigue
2004-03-19  5:10                               ` skaller
2004-03-19  8:41                               ` Sven Luther
2004-03-19  8:58                               ` Richard Jones
2004-03-19  9:13                                 ` Sven Luther
2004-03-19 10:03                                   ` Alex Baretta
2004-03-19 10:17                                     ` Sven Luther
2004-03-19 11:49                                       ` Benjamin Geer
2004-03-19 12:20                                         ` Gerd Stolpmann
2004-03-19 12:31                                         ` Sven Luther
2004-03-19 12:34                                         ` Issac Trotts
2004-03-21  9:13                                           ` skaller
2004-03-21 20:05                                             ` Issac Trotts
     [not found]                                               ` <1079927683.3165.73.camel@pelican.wigram>
2004-03-22  6:51                                                 ` Issac Trotts
2004-03-23 19:48                                                   ` skaller
2004-03-23 22:16                                                     ` Gerd Stolpmann
2004-04-03  6:36                                                     ` Dustin Sallings
2004-04-03  7:43                                                       ` Kenneth Knowles
2004-04-05  7:50                                                         ` Dustin Sallings
2004-04-06  4:20                                                           ` Vasili Galchin
2004-04-06  7:24                                                             ` skaller
2004-04-06 17:24                                                               ` Benjamin Geer
2004-04-06 17:38                                                                 ` Kip Macy
2004-04-07 23:11                                                                   ` Vasili Galchin
2004-04-07 23:08                                                                 ` Vasili Galchin
2004-04-07 23:31                                                                   ` Dustin Sallings
2004-04-08 13:57                                                                     ` John Goerzen
2004-04-13 11:15                                                                       ` Keith Wansbrough
2004-04-08 13:48                                                                   ` John Goerzen
2004-04-08 14:06                                                                     ` Richard Jones
2004-04-08 14:53                                                                       ` John Goerzen
2004-04-08 19:56                                                                         ` [Caml-list] Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar Christophe TROESTLER
2004-04-08 20:47                                                                       ` OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Evan Martin
2004-04-08 21:20                                                                         ` Kenneth Knowles
2004-04-07 23:03                                                               ` Vasili Galchin
2004-04-08  7:03                                                                 ` james woodyatt
2004-04-08  7:15                                                                   ` Stijn De Saeger
2004-04-08  8:25                                                                 ` skaller
2004-04-08  9:35                                                                   ` Andreas Rossberg
2004-04-08 11:05                                                                     ` Florian Hars
2004-04-08 11:31                                                                       ` Andreas Rossberg
2004-04-08 13:39                                                                         ` Jacques Garrigue
2004-04-08 12:33                                                                     ` Richard Jones
2004-03-19 12:17                                       ` Alex Baretta
2004-03-19 12:37                                         ` Sven Luther
2004-03-19 12:44                                         ` Issac Trotts
2004-03-18 23:31                           ` Benjamin Geer
2004-03-19  1:08                           ` Michael Vanier
2004-03-19  8:51                           ` Sven Luther
2004-03-19 13:20                             ` John Carr
2004-03-19 15:12                               ` Sven Luther
2004-03-21 21:11                                 ` John Carr
2004-03-22  6:46                                   ` Sven Luther
2004-03-19  8:48                         ` Sven Luther
2004-03-18 18:57               ` Shawn Wagner
2004-03-18 21:16                 ` Kenneth Knowles
2004-03-18 22:32                   ` Fernando Alegre
2004-03-19  0:03                     ` [Caml-list] Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar Remi Vanicat
2004-03-19  8:50                 ` [Caml-list] Demande clarification nomenclature ocaml* Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons
2004-03-19  9:49                   ` [Caml-list] Suggestion (was: Demande clarification nomenclature ocaml*) Wolfgang Müller
2004-03-19 10:19                     ` [Caml-list] Modules and namespaces Richard Jones
2004-03-19 10:42                       ` Wolfgang Müller
2004-03-19 10:45                       ` Sven Luther
2004-03-19 13:56                         ` Fernando Alegre
2004-03-19 15:15                           ` Sven Luther
2004-03-19 11:45                   ` [Caml-list] Demande clarification nomenclature ocaml* Benjamin Geer
2004-03-20  6:12                 ` OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) Matt Gushee
2004-03-20 11:29                   ` Benjamin Geer
2004-03-20  6:23               ` Vasili Galchin
2004-03-20  6:23               ` Vasili Galchin
2004-03-09 17:59 ` [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library james woodyatt
2004-03-19 10:19   ` Sven Luther
2004-03-20  6:15     ` Vasili Galchin
2004-03-20  6:40       ` Sven Luther
2004-03-20  6:45     ` Vasili Galchin
2004-03-09 18:04 ` Stefano Zacchiroli

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