[Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Alexander Epifanov]

Hello,

I have read message about Skala language, and I think (it's only my IMHO),
that ocaml have no future without some features, like concurrent programming
(CP) and chance to use libraries from the other languages.

1) Erlang uses build in CP, but Skala has a library for it, IMHO it would be a
good way for ocaml feature. Thread module isn't enough for effective usage of
CP.

2) No one would use ocaml without libraries, and it's so hard to rewrite them
all in ocaml. external functions aren't enough to use libraries from Languages
like java or c++.

Are any plans about these two features exists ?

PS: Sorry for bad English.

Thanks.

-- 
Gentoo Linux http://www.gentoo.org

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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Richard Jones]

On Fri, Jan 23, 2004 at 01:19:49PM +0300, Alexander Epifanov wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I have read message about Skala language, and I think (it's only my IMHO),
> that ocaml have no future without some features, like concurrent programming
> (CP) and chance to use libraries from the other languages.

The particular 'feature' of the Skala language is that it compiles to
the JVM.  Unfortunately if you've ever used the JVM you'll know that
typical implementations are slow as hell and have an awful garbage
collector.  Give me the OCaml VM any day (or native code - even
better).

The other features of Skala - data matching on objects, generic
programming - should be added to OCaml (eg. by adding GCaml).

> 1) Erlang uses build in CP, but Skala has a library for it, IMHO it would be a
> good way for ocaml feature. Thread module isn't enough for effective usage of
> CP.
> 
> 2) No one would use ocaml without libraries, and it's so hard to rewrite them
> all in ocaml. external functions aren't enough to use libraries from Languages
> like java or c++.

Yes.  You can use Perl libraries directly in OCaml right now.  And
believe me, Perl libraries are more powerful and more thought out than
Java libraries any day.

Rich.

-- 
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Merjis Ltd. http://www.merjis.com/ - improving website return on investment
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[Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Alexander Epifanov]

Hello,

I have read message about Skala language, and I think (it's only my IMHO),
that ocaml have no future without some features, like concurrent programming
(CP) and chance to use libraries from the other languages.

1) Erlang uses build in CP, but Skala has a library for it, IMHO it would be a
good way for ocaml feature. Thread module isn't enough for effective usage of
CP.

2) No one would use ocaml without libraries, and it's so hard to rewrite them
all in ocaml. external functions aren't enough to use libraries from Languages
like java or c++.

Are any plans about these two features exists ?

Thanks.

-- 
Gentoo Linux http://www.gentoo.org

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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Alex Baretta]

Alexander Epifanov wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I have read message about Skala language, and I think (it's only my IMHO),
> that ocaml have no future without some features, like concurrent programming
> (CP) and chance to use libraries from the other languages.

Thanks for sharing you "humble opinion" with us. Let me share mine with 
you: my company has chosen Ocaml as it's primary general purpose 
language and is devoting most of it's R&D efforts towards new 
development based on/for Ocaml.

> 1) Erlang uses build in CP, but Skala has a library for it, IMHO it would be a
> good way for ocaml feature. Thread module isn't enough for effective usage of
> CP.

Ever heard about message passing? Did you ever try running a 
multithreaded application on a server cluster?

> 2) No one would use ocaml without libraries, and it's so hard to rewrite them
> all in ocaml. external functions aren't enough to use libraries from Languages
> like java or c++.

No one. Except maybe Xavier et al. in the Cristal group. Except maybe 
myself and all of my colleagues. Except all of those who subscribe to 
the mailing list. Except hundreds of researchers and students.

How about "No one you know would use Ocaml with Java bindings".  No one 
I know would use a language with Java bindings for any realistic project.

> Are any plans about these two features exists ?

I definitely hope Xavier will not waste his time coding JNI's to use 
ocaml within Java.

Alex

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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Alexander Epifanov]

On 09:56 Tue 27 Jan     , Alex Baretta wrote:
> Alexander Epifanov wrote:
> >Hello,
> >
> >I have read message about Skala language, and I think (it's only my IMHO),
> >that ocaml have no future without some features, like concurrent 
> >programming
> >(CP) and chance to use libraries from the other languages.
> 
> Thanks for sharing you "humble opinion" with us. Let me share mine with 
> you: my company has chosen Ocaml as it's primary general purpose 
> language and is devoting most of it's R&D efforts towards new 
> development based on/for Ocaml.
> 
> >1) Erlang uses build in CP, but Skala has a library for it, IMHO it would 
> >be a
> >good way for ocaml feature. Thread module isn't enough for effective usage 
> >of
> >CP.
> 
> Ever heard about message passing? Did you ever try running a 
> multithreaded application on a server cluster?
Everybody has server clusters?
> 
> >2) No one would use ocaml without libraries, and it's so hard to rewrite 
> >them
> >all in ocaml. external functions aren't enough to use libraries from 
> >Languages
> >like java or c++.
> 
> No one. Except maybe Xavier et al. in the Cristal group. Except maybe 
> myself and all of my colleagues. Except all of those who subscribe to 
> the mailing list. Except hundreds of researchers and students.
You want to use ocaml for yourself only? Do You need more popularity of
ocaml ? OCaml isn't used a lot for commercial projects.
> 
> How about "No one you know would use Ocaml with Java bindings".  No one +
> I know would use a language with Java bindings for any realistic project.
> 
> >Are any plans about these two features exists ?
> 
> I definitely hope Xavier will not waste his time coding JNI's to use 
> ocaml within Java.
I agree with you, JNI isn't the best solution. But what time do you need to
implement the part of CPAN's libraries for example ? Ocaml is the great
language for the BIG projects. but it hasn't simple libraries for small
projects. Of course, It doesn't need them for "academical" language. 
> 
> Alex

-- 
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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Shawn Wagner]

On Tue, Jan 27, 2004 at 12:43:51PM +0300, Alexander Epifanov wrote:

> I agree with you, JNI isn't the best solution. But what time do you need to
> implement the part of CPAN's libraries for example ? Ocaml is the great
> language for the BIG projects. but it hasn't simple libraries for small
> projects. Of course, It doesn't need them for "academical" language. 

The obvious thing to do is for people to, if they write stuff (Be it big
modules or small little utility functions) that would be useful to the
general population of ocaml users, is release that code so we get those
small libraries. Then the hard part: Advertising them and getting people to
use them.

Something I'm thinking of doing after I finish getting some much-delayed
updates to a couple of the libraries I maintain out the door: A
general-purpose config file library; the sort of thing that'd be useful for
most non-trivial applications that, as far as I'm aware, doesn't exit for
ocaml yet.

-- 
Shawn Wagner
shawnw@speakeasy.org

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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[skaller]

CPAN for Ocaml? No chance. We actually need:

CPAN-GPL
CPAN-LGPL
CPAN-BSD
CPAN-FFAU
CPAN-Q

-- 
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snail:25/85c Wigram Rd, Glebe, NSW 2037, Australia.
voice:61-2-9660-0850. Checkout Felix: http://felix.sf.net




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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[james woodyatt]

everyone--

At the risk of flogging a dead horse...

I still think the simplest and most effective way to improve the 
utility of Ocaml in the construction of large software projects is not 
a CPAN-like distributed source library-- it's a federated naming 
authority for library modules, like you find in the Java Runtime 
Environment.

This is the *one* glaring hole in the language as far as I'm concerned, 
and if I ever find myself in a position to do something about it-- I 
just might have to hack the tool chain myself to get what I want.  (On 
the other hand, the one glaring hole in the implementation that INRIA 
provides, if you ask me, is the incomplete support for dynamic module 
load/link in native code programs.  This is not that big a problem for 
me, but it would be nice to have.)

In all other respects, I'm more than satisfied-- I'm tickled pink.


-- 
j h woodyatt <jhw@wetware.com>
markets are only free to the people who own them.

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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Alex Baretta]

Ken Rose wrote:
> Alex Baretta wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you work?  Are they hiring?  (only half ;-) )
> 
>  - ken

We are actually hiring. We are in Milano, Italy.

Alex

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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[David Fox]

Alex Baretta wrote:

> Ken Rose wrote:
>
>> Alex Baretta wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Where do you work?  Are they hiring?  (only half ;-) )
>>
>>  - ken
>
>
> We are actually hiring. We are in Milano, Italy.
>
> Alex
>
We're looking for an ocaml + operating system person, if you want to 
come to San Diego.


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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Eray Ozkural]

On Wednesday 28 January 2004 15:29, David Fox wrote:
> Alex Baretta wrote:
> > Ken Rose wrote:
> >> Alex Baretta wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Where do you work?  Are they hiring?  (only half ;-) )
> >>
> >>  - ken
> >
> > We are actually hiring. We are in Milano, Italy.
> >
> > Alex
>
> We're looking for an ocaml + operating system person, if you want to
> come to San Diego.

w00t! ocaml positions!

-- 
Eray Ozkural (exa) <erayo@cs.bilkent.edu.tr>
Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara  KDE Project: http://www.kde.org
http://www.cs.bilkent.edu.tr/~erayo  Malfunction: http://malfunct.iuma.com
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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Alexander Danilov]

Alexander Epifanov wrote:

>Hello,
>
>I have read message about Skala language, and I think (it's only my IMHO),
>that ocaml have no future without some features, like concurrent programming
>(CP) and chance to use libraries from the other languages.
>
>1) Erlang uses build in CP, but Skala has a library for it, IMHO it would be a
>good way for ocaml feature. Thread module isn't enough for effective usage of
>CP.
>
>  
>
CP is not the main feature. For example, Perl has no good and stable CP 
support, but it is very popular.
There are no so many task, that need CP.

>2) No one would use ocaml without libraries, and it's so hard to rewrite them
>all in ocaml. external functions aren't enough to use libraries from Languages
>like java or c++.
>
>Are any plans about these two features exists ?
>
>Thanks.
>
>  
>
http://wiki.tcl.tk/critcl - here is interesting idea how to make 
bindings wuickly. I think it can be implemented in Ocaml,

The language will be preffered in many projects only when it have good 
repository of packages, policy of packaging libraries, modules, etc., 
simple mechanism to install this packages over the net and so on. So I 
think that for more popularity Ocaml need for something like CPAN 
http://www.cpan.org/ . Thats why I don't use Tcl, Ruby, Ocaml in real 
applications. If Ocaml community create packaging policy and network 
archive, than number of Ocaml developers will increase much faster.

Not CP, not multithreading can make programmer happy :), but CPAN can.

P.S.: I know, my English is terrible, I will try to make it better :)

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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Alexander Epifanov]

On 12:41 Tue 27 Jan     , Alexander Danilov wrote:
> Alexander Epifanov wrote:
> 
> >Hello,
> >
> >I have read message about Skala language, and I think (it's only my IMHO),
> >that ocaml have no future without some features, like concurrent 
> >programming
> >(CP) and chance to use libraries from the other languages.
> >
> >1) Erlang uses build in CP, but Skala has a library for it, IMHO it would 
> >be a
> >good way for ocaml feature. Thread module isn't enough for effective usage 
> >of
> >CP.
> >
> > 
> >
> CP is not the main feature. For example, Perl has no good and stable CP 
> support, but it is very popular.
> There are no so many task, that need CP.
Maybe. but Thread isn't the best solution.
> 
> >2) No one would use ocaml without libraries, and it's so hard to rewrite 
> >them
> >all in ocaml. external functions aren't enough to use libraries from 
> >Languages
> >like java or c++.
> >
> >Are any plans about these two features exists ?
> >
> >Thanks.
> >
> > 
> >
> http://wiki.tcl.tk/critcl - here is interesting idea how to make 
> bindings wuickly. I think it can be implemented in Ocaml,
> 
> The language will be preffered in many projects only when it have good 
> repository of packages, policy of packaging libraries, modules, etc., 
> simple mechanism to install this packages over the net and so on. So I 
> think that for more popularity Ocaml need for something like CPAN 
> http://www.cpan.org/ . Thats why I don't use Tcl, Ruby, Ocaml in real 
> applications. If Ocaml community create packaging policy and network 
> archive, than number of Ocaml developers will increase much faster.
> 
Yes, I can't use _only_ Ocaml for the projects.

> Not CP, not multithreading can make programmer happy :), but CPAN can.
nice phrase. I agree with you.
> 
> P.S.: I know, my English is terrible, I will try to make it better :)
My English more terrible, I'm just learning it :)

-- 
Gentoo Linux http://www.gentoo.org

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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Eric Stokes]

	Despite a little FUD (and bad English :P) I think this thread has a 
lot of good ideas in it. After reading it all it seems to me that Ocaml 
is in a transition period, more and more production oriented 
programmers are starting to pay serious attention to it. For my case, 
my organization has decided to migrate to Ocaml as our primary general 
purpose language. We have invested significant R&D into code written in 
Ocaml, and have recently launched our first production service written 
in it.
	That said, the concerns about libraries, and about a CPAN like 
repository are very good ones. There is a CPAN like repository for 
Ocaml (there are several), and while they are in a somewhat embryonic 
state, they are quite useable. The best example is the Ocaml link 
database http://www.npc.de/ocaml/linkdb/ almost all Ocaml libraries 
eventually get posted there. It is missing some features often 
associated with CPAN, however the most important feature of such a tool 
is that it serves as a directory of available libraries. The link 
database accomplishes this quite well, and serves the community well. 
GODI is looking to be a more complete CPAN clone for Ocaml, I have not 
played with it extensively yet, so I can't say too much more. Note 
also, that C and C++ have no central library repository, and yet they 
remain the industry standard general purpose languages. On the library 
side of things, there is a C interface, and a Perl interface, which 
opens up quite a lot of libraries to use from Ocaml. 	However, one of 
the main benefits of Ocaml is type safety, and using foreign language 
libraries throws away some of that type safety (the library is free to 
have grievous errors in it). The primary reason that my organization 
has switched to Ocaml is that we are under increasing pressure to write 
highly reliable software. From our point of view all of our libraries 
must eventually be rewritten in Ocaml, and the sooner the better. I 
don't think that the pressure we feel is without parallel elsewhere in 
the industry, so I think that Ocaml has quite a bright future as a 
production quality general purpose language.

On Jan 27, 2004, at 1:57 AM, Alexander Epifanov wrote:

> On 12:41 Tue 27 Jan     , Alexander Danilov wrote:
>> Alexander Epifanov wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I have read message about Skala language, and I think (it's only my 
>>> IMHO),
>>> that ocaml have no future without some features, like concurrent
>>> programming
>>> (CP) and chance to use libraries from the other languages.
>>>
>>> 1) Erlang uses build in CP, but Skala has a library for it, IMHO it 
>>> would
>>> be a
>>> good way for ocaml feature. Thread module isn't enough for effective 
>>> usage
>>> of
>>> CP.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> CP is not the main feature. For example, Perl has no good and stable 
>> CP
>> support, but it is very popular.
>> There are no so many task, that need CP.
> Maybe. but Thread isn't the best solution.
>>
>>> 2) No one would use ocaml without libraries, and it's so hard to 
>>> rewrite
>>> them
>>> all in ocaml. external functions aren't enough to use libraries from
>>> Languages
>>> like java or c++.
>>>
>>> Are any plans about these two features exists ?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> http://wiki.tcl.tk/critcl - here is interesting idea how to make
>> bindings wuickly. I think it can be implemented in Ocaml,
>>
>> The language will be preffered in many projects only when it have good
>> repository of packages, policy of packaging libraries, modules, etc.,
>> simple mechanism to install this packages over the net and so on. So I
>> think that for more popularity Ocaml need for something like CPAN
>> http://www.cpan.org/ . Thats why I don't use Tcl, Ruby, Ocaml in real
>> applications. If Ocaml community create packaging policy and network
>> archive, than number of Ocaml developers will increase much faster.
>>
> Yes, I can't use _only_ Ocaml for the projects.
>
>> Not CP, not multithreading can make programmer happy :), but CPAN can.
> nice phrase. I agree with you.
>>
>> P.S.: I know, my English is terrible, I will try to make it better :)
> My English more terrible, I'm just learning it :)
>
> -- 
> Gentoo Linux http://www.gentoo.org
>
> -------------------
> To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: 
> http://caml.inria.fr
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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[David Fox]

I would forward this post to some management folks around here if it 
didn't have the subject "ocaml killer"!  :-)

Eric Stokes wrote:

>     Despite a little FUD (and bad English :P) I think this thread has 
> a lot of good ideas in it. After reading it all it seems to me that 
> Ocaml is in a transition period, more and more production oriented 
> programmers are starting to pay serious attention to it. For my case, 
> my organization has decided to migrate to Ocaml as our primary general 
> purpose language. We have invested significant R&D into code written 
> in Ocaml, and have recently launched our first production service 
> written in it.
>     That said, the concerns about libraries, and about a CPAN like 
> repository are very good ones. There is a CPAN like repository for 
> Ocaml (there are several), and while they are in a somewhat embryonic 
> state, they are quite useable. The best example is the Ocaml link 
> database http://www.npc.de/ocaml/linkdb/ almost all Ocaml libraries 
> eventually get posted there. It is missing some features often 
> associated with CPAN, however the most important feature of such a 
> tool is that it serves as a directory of available libraries. The link 
> database accomplishes this quite well, and serves the community well. 
> GODI is looking to be a more complete CPAN clone for Ocaml, I have not 
> played with it extensively yet, so I can't say too much more. Note 
> also, that C and C++ have no central library repository, and yet they 
> remain the industry standard general purpose languages. On the library 
> side of things, there is a C interface, and a Perl interface, which 
> opens up quite a lot of libraries to use from Ocaml.     However, one 
> of the main benefits of Ocaml is type safety, and using foreign 
> language libraries throws away some of that type safety (the library 
> is free to have grievous errors in it). The primary reason that my 
> organization has switched to Ocaml is that we are under increasing 
> pressure to write highly reliable software. From our point of view all 
> of our libraries must eventually be rewritten in Ocaml, and the sooner 
> the better. I don't think that the pressure we feel is without 
> parallel elsewhere in the industry, so I think that Ocaml has quite a 
> bright future as a production quality general purpose language.
>
> On Jan 27, 2004, at 1:57 AM, Alexander Epifanov wrote:
>
>> On 12:41 Tue 27 Jan     , Alexander Danilov wrote:
>>
>>> Alexander Epifanov wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> I have read message about Skala language, and I think (it's only my 
>>>> IMHO),
>>>> that ocaml have no future without some features, like concurrent
>>>> programming
>>>> (CP) and chance to use libraries from the other languages.
>>>>
>>>> 1) Erlang uses build in CP, but Skala has a library for it, IMHO it 
>>>> would
>>>> be a
>>>> good way for ocaml feature. Thread module isn't enough for 
>>>> effective usage
>>>> of
>>>> CP.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> CP is not the main feature. For example, Perl has no good and stable CP
>>> support, but it is very popular.
>>> There are no so many task, that need CP.
>>
>> Maybe. but Thread isn't the best solution.
>>
>>>
>>>> 2) No one would use ocaml without libraries, and it's so hard to 
>>>> rewrite
>>>> them
>>>> all in ocaml. external functions aren't enough to use libraries from
>>>> Languages
>>>> like java or c++.
>>>>
>>>> Are any plans about these two features exists ?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> http://wiki.tcl.tk/critcl - here is interesting idea how to make
>>> bindings wuickly. I think it can be implemented in Ocaml,
>>>
>>> The language will be preffered in many projects only when it have good
>>> repository of packages, policy of packaging libraries, modules, etc.,
>>> simple mechanism to install this packages over the net and so on. So I
>>> think that for more popularity Ocaml need for something like CPAN
>>> http://www.cpan.org/ . Thats why I don't use Tcl, Ruby, Ocaml in real
>>> applications. If Ocaml community create packaging policy and network
>>> archive, than number of Ocaml developers will increase much faster.
>>>
>> Yes, I can't use _only_ Ocaml for the projects.
>>
>>> Not CP, not multithreading can make programmer happy :), but CPAN can.
>>
>> nice phrase. I agree with you.
>>
>>>
>>> P.S.: I know, my English is terrible, I will try to make it better :)
>>
>> My English more terrible, I'm just learning it :)
>>
>> -- 
>> Gentoo Linux http://www.gentoo.org
>>
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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Richard Jones]

On Tue, Jan 27, 2004 at 08:43:51AM -0800, Eric Stokes wrote:
> programmers are starting to pay serious attention to it. For my case, 
> my organization has decided to migrate to Ocaml as our primary general 
> purpose language. We have invested significant R&D into code written in 

Which enlightened company is this?

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones. http://www.annexia.org/ http://www.j-london.com/
Merjis Ltd. http://www.merjis.com/ - improving website return on investment
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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Eric Stokes]

On Jan 27, 2004, at 10:47 AM, Richard Jones wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 27, 2004 at 08:43:51AM -0800, Eric Stokes wrote:
>> programmers are starting to pay serious attention to it. For my case,
>> my organization has decided to migrate to Ocaml as our primary general
>> purpose language. We have invested significant R&D into code written 
>> in
>
> Which enlightened company is this?
>

The central IT of California State University Northridge. We're 
currently working on an open source
middleware suite written (largely) in Ocaml.
	Part of our R&D effort has involved taking over maintenance of 
ocamldap, and adding
significant features to it. We've also been working with GPS to add 
fast-cgi support to ocamlnet
(working code is in cvs awaiting release). In the future we'd like to 
do a native Ocaml ldap protocal
implementation for ocamldap. That means that we will probably end up 
implementing an ASN.1
compiler, and BER, DER, etc.. There is an ASN.1 compiler laying around 
that we might try to
resurrect, but we'll still need to implement BER, etc.. A working ASN.1 
environment would be great
for Ocaml, as it would allow lots of really cool protocals (such as 
SNMP) to be implemented easily.
We don't currently have a time frame for getting this done, and our 
metadirectory will probably take
priority.

Our directory managment daemon (written in ocaml) can be found at
www-qa.csun.edu/opensource/rmwd
(this site is in development, I'm literally scrambling to get it up :P. 
the final url may change.
I'll be posting  to the link database when its ready.)

Info on our meta-directory will be going up soon, it is not currently 
written in Ocaml, but we're planning
to do a rewrite in Ocaml fairly soon.

So that's the 5 minute summery of CSUN :P

> Rich.
>
> -- 
> Richard Jones. http://www.annexia.org/ http://www.j-london.com/
> Merjis Ltd. http://www.merjis.com/ - improving website return on 
> investment
> PTHRLIB is a library for writing small, efficient and fast servers in 
> C.
> HTTP, CGI, DBI, lightweight threads: 
> http://www.annexia.org/freeware/pthrlib/
>
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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Eray Ozkural]

I think you're trolling.

Have a nice day,

On Tuesday 27 January 2004 08:32, Alexander Epifanov wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have read message about Skala language, and I think (it's only my IMHO),
> that ocaml have no future without some features, like concurrent
> programming (CP) and chance to use libraries from the other languages.
>
> 1) Erlang uses build in CP, but Skala has a library for it, IMHO it would
> be a good way for ocaml feature. Thread module isn't enough for effective
> usage of CP.
>
> 2) No one would use ocaml without libraries, and it's so hard to rewrite
> them all in ocaml. external functions aren't enough to use libraries from
> Languages like java or c++.
>
> Are any plans about these two features exists ?
>
> Thanks.

-- 
Eray Ozkural (exa) <erayo@cs.bilkent.edu.tr>
Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara  KDE Project: http://www.kde.org
http://www.cs.bilkent.edu.tr/~erayo  Malfunction: http://malfunct.iuma.com
GPG public key fingerprint: 360C 852F 88B0 A745 F31B  EA0F 7C07 AE16 874D 539C

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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Chet Murthy]

Alexander,

I don't know what to say, except that clearly, you should spend some
time in the trenches, working with the COBOL of the 21st Century --
Java.

That's what I do for a living.  I've written extremely complex Java
systems.  I've debugged more Java code than anybody else at my current
employer, and I'm not kidding.

And, y'know what?

Java/the JVM still sux.

I left CAML in 1994, when it still didn't have a native-code
compiler.  I started hacking on Java in the spring of 1996.  I've got
code in (probably) every JVM.  I've debugged dozens of very large, and
hundreds of only somewhat large Java deployments, some of them in
situations involving large amounts of business at risk.

And y'know what?

Java/the JVM still sux.

"concurrency"!  You ever tried to use Java threads to do anything
meaningful?  Check out the J2EE spec.  It basically is BUILT around
NOT sharing anything between threads.

Oh, and y'know, we have a joke: "every Java bug is a connection-pool
(or resource-pool) bug".

Here's another: "When you arrive onsite,  grep for synchronized, and
if you see it, put your laptop back in your bag, tell 'em you're going
to get coffee, and don't come back".

Java/the JVM is not a systems-programming language.  Period.  Oh, and
I'll defend that against all comers.  Difference is, though, if you
wanna attack, I'll expect real examples, not the academic crap that
most programming language theorists throw around.

--chet--

P.S.  I came back to CAML for personal programming in 1999, and after
that four-year hiatus, during which I became a commercial JVM
internals guy, as well as a commercial transaction-processing
firefighter (think "Mr. Wolf" from _Pulp Fiction_).  So I think I have
the experience to compare, and the verdict seems manifestly
incontrovertible: Java/the JVM sux.

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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Martin Berger]

> Java/the JVM is not a systems-programming language.  Period.  Oh, and
> I'll defend that against all comers.  Difference is, though, if you
> wanna attack, I'll expect real examples, not the academic crap that
> most programming language theorists throw around.

i'll have to defend my profession here: which working programming
language theorist proposes java as a "systems-programming language"?
most of them are busy researching concurrency or pointer arithmetic
these days.

but i guess it depends what you mean by that "systems-programming
language". rather than attempting a definition (it's late here), i'll
point to C/C++ or Cyclone as examples.

martin

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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Chet Murthy]

>>>>> "MB" == Martin Berger <martinb@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> writes:

    MB> but i guess it depends what you mean by that
    MB> "systems-programming language". rather than attempting a
    MB> definition (it's late here), i'll point to C/C++ or Cyclone as
    MB> examples.

A "system" includes an application-server, a GUI, a database, a window
manager, a widget system, a GRID scheduler, a directory server, a
group communications toolkit and lots of other things.

Application programming, is really programming -inside- a system,
wherein programmers face strong limits on what they can do, with the
aim of keeping their code well-managed, controlled, and providing a
"managed environment" for the code's execution.

All of these things, in my opinion, benefit from being written in
high-level languages -- significantly higher than CCured and Cyclone.

The high-level abstraction capabilities of CAML shine here, and do
some of capabilities of Java in these applications.

BTW, people (fools) propose using Java to write all of those things I
describe above.

--chet--

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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Chet Murthy]

>>>>> "CM" == Chet Murthy <chet@watson.ibm.com> writes:

    CM> All of these things, in my opinion, benefit from being written
    CM> in high-level languages -- significantly higher than CCured
    CM> and Cyclone.

    CM> The high-level abstraction capabilities of CAML shine here,
    CM> and do some of capabilities of Java in these applications.

I wasn't clear here.  The high-level capabilities of both Java and
CAML are useful in writing such systems.  Too bad Java/the JVM's
behavioural attributes make it totally unsuited.  Ah, well.

For those who don't understand what I mean, take a look at
InstallShield MultiPlatform.  Also look at "javac" itself.  And "jar".
Ask yourself how such simple problems have admitted such awful
solutions in Java.  Marvel at the foolishness of the creators of these
artifacts.

--chet--

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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Martin Berger]

> A "system" includes an application-server, a GUI, a database, a window
> manager, a widget system, a GRID scheduler, a directory server, a
> group communications toolkit and lots of other things.
> 
> Application programming, is really programming -inside- a system,
> wherein programmers face strong limits on what they can do, with the
> aim of keeping their code well-managed, controlled, and providing a
> "managed environment" for the code's execution.

I agree.

> The high-level abstraction capabilities of CAML shine here, and do
> some of capabilities of Java in these applications.

 > I wasn't clear here.  The high-level capabilities of both Java and
 > CAML are useful in writing such systems.  Too bad Java/the JVM's
 > behavioural attributes make it totally unsuited.  Ah, well.

please allow me to compare Ocaml and Java from the lofty perspective
of a programming language theorist. both are mixed imperative/functional
languages (like all others). what are the *essential* differences?

Ocaml has/Java doesn't have

   * sum types
   * pattern matching as destructors for sum types
   * full function types (not restricted to first-order like java)
   * second-order types (will be added to java)

Java has/Ocaml doesn't have

   * reflection (maybe in ocaml, not sure at the moment)

there are probably other big differences, for example in the module system,
but let's ignore those.

if i'm right about this, then what java lacks is a more expressive
type system.

martin

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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Chet Murthy]

Martin,

[Maybe this is going off-topic.  Since I'm comparing Java to Caml,
I'll leave this cc'ed to the Caml list, but if there are further
responses, it might be good to take 'em offline.]

>>>>> "MB" == Martin Berger <martinb@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> writes:

    MB> please allow me to compare Ocaml and Java from the lofty
    MB> perspective of a programming language theorist. both are mixed
    MB> imperative/functional languages (like all others). what are
    MB> the *essential* differences?

    MB> if i'm right about this, then what java lacks is a more
    MB> expressive type system.

Your comparison of Java and Caml leaves out two of the most important
parts of CAML (from a systems-programmer perspective):

  (1) high-quality FFI (MUCH better than JNI)

  (2) high-quality C-like execution model, WITHOUT threads, WITHOUT
  intrinsic dynamic code-loading

Compared to these, the type system is almost irrelevant.  There's a
reason, for instance, that Perl (the first popular implementation of
Scheme*) won: a killer FFI, great UNIX syscall support, and bang-up
support for the string datatype.  Java/the JVM ain't got none of this!

[*: and I am NOT kidding about Perl being a popular implementation of
Scheme, albeit with a pretty interesting syntax.]

These are the things that matter in a language.  The fact that CAML
has fancy types, well, -I- like it, but it isn't why I wrote some of
my most complex systems in it, and it will never be enough to push
CAML into the mainstream.

Xavier's (and others') careful attention to building a -system-, and
to making CAML suitable for systems-programming, is infinitely more
compelling, than the type system.

After all, I switched from SML to CAML, not for the type system, but
for the quality of the implementation.  And I wrote Coq V5.10 in CAML,
again, 'cos it was such a high-quality systems language.

--chet--

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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Thomas Fischbacher]

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004, Chet Murthy wrote:

> These are the things that matter in a language.  The fact that CAML
> has fancy types, well, -I- like it, but it isn't why I wrote some of
> my most complex systems in it, and it will never be enough to push
> CAML into the mainstream.

At least, it is nice to be able to use the FFI to define a function 
believe_me: 'a -> 'b which is just the identity, so that one can pass as 
an argument a function to itself. There _are_ some situations where things 
are best handled by using the fixed-point principle at a deep level.

Yes, you may call me a heretic. No, I do not repair fridges with chainsaws.

-- 
regards,               tf@cip.physik.uni-muenchen.de              (o_
 Thomas Fischbacher -  http://www.cip.physik.uni-muenchen.de/~tf  //\
(lambda (n) ((lambda (p q r) (p p q r)) (lambda (g x y)           V_/_
(if (= x 0) y (g g (- x 1) (* x y)))) n 1))                  (Debian GNU)

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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[skaller]

On Thu, 2004-01-29 at 11:11, Martin Berger wrote:
> > A "system" includes an application-server, a GUI, a database, a window

> please allow me to compare Ocaml and Java from the lofty perspective
> of a programming language theorist. both are mixed imperative/functional
> languages (like all others). what are the *essential* differences?
> 
> Ocaml has/Java doesn't have
> 
>    * sum types
>    * pattern matching as destructors for sum types
>    * full function types (not restricted to first-order like java)
>    * second-order types (will be added to java)
> 
> Java has/Ocaml doesn't have
> 
>    * reflection (maybe in ocaml, not sure at the moment)
> 
> there are probably other big differences, for example in the module system,
> but let's ignore those.

Java has 'inheritance is subtyping' which is bogus,
whereas Ocaml uses algebraic subtyping which is
well-principled.

Ocaml also has polymorphic functions, Java does not.
(virtual functins don't really count here ..:-)
I would say this is quite distinct from the typing
of the function's interface (to see this consider
a language like C++ or Felix where values are not boxed).

-- 
John Max Skaller, mailto:skaller@tpg.com.au
snail:25/85c Wigram Rd, Glebe, NSW 2037, Australia.
voice:61-2-9660-0850. Checkout Felix: http://felix.sf.net




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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Brian Hurt]

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004, Martin Berger wrote:

> > Java/the JVM is not a systems-programming language.  Period.  Oh, and
> > I'll defend that against all comers.  Difference is, though, if you
> > wanna attack, I'll expect real examples, not the academic crap that
> > most programming language theorists throw around.
> 
> i'll have to defend my profession here: which working programming
> language theorist proposes java as a "systems-programming language"?
> most of them are busy researching concurrency or pointer arithmetic
> these days.

Supposedly Sun has an OS written in Java.  I wouldn't touch it with a ten 
foot cattle prod, myself.  I'd rather use Pascal to write an OS (I'd shoot 
myself first in either case, it'd be less painfull).

> 
> but i guess it depends what you mean by that "systems-programming
> language". rather than attempting a definition (it's late here), i'll
> point to C/C++ or Cyclone as examples.

As a day-job systems programmers, throw C++ out of that group.  Systems 
programming (device drivers, OSs, BIOSs, etc- things that beat directly on 
hardware) tends to be either C or assembly.

See previous rant.

-- 
"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of
mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."
                                - Gene Spafford 
Brian

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Re: [Caml-list] ocaml killer

[Alexander Epifanov]

On 18:26 Wed 28 Jan     , Chet Murthy wrote:

I agree with you on all items.
I've written a lot of java applications. "Java - slow sux" - it's right.
I don't think the JVM is a good solution. I told about scala, which used JVM,
but I don't want to tell "We need to use JVM".

The basic problem in projects in which I took part, was that I could not use
ocaml _only_ to make project complete. I wrote a lot of C/C++ functions to use
ocaml with CORBA or SNMP for example.
> 
> Alexander,
> 
> I don't know what to say, except that clearly, you should spend some
> time in the trenches, working with the COBOL of the 21st Century --
> Java.
> 
> That's what I do for a living.  I've written extremely complex Java
> systems.  I've debugged more Java code than anybody else at my current
> employer, and I'm not kidding.
> 
> And, y'know what?
> 
> Java/the JVM still sux.
> 
> I left CAML in 1994, when it still didn't have a native-code
> compiler.  I started hacking on Java in the spring of 1996.  I've got
> code in (probably) every JVM.  I've debugged dozens of very large, and
> hundreds of only somewhat large Java deployments, some of them in
> situations involving large amounts of business at risk.
> 
> And y'know what?
> 
> Java/the JVM still sux.
> 
> "concurrency"!  You ever tried to use Java threads to do anything
> meaningful?  Check out the J2EE spec.  It basically is BUILT around
> NOT sharing anything between threads.
> 
> Oh, and y'know, we have a joke: "every Java bug is a connection-pool
> (or resource-pool) bug".
> 
> Here's another: "When you arrive onsite,  grep for synchronized, and
> if you see it, put your laptop back in your bag, tell 'em you're going
> to get coffee, and don't come back".
> 
> Java/the JVM is not a systems-programming language.  Period.  Oh, and
> I'll defend that against all comers.  Difference is, though, if you
> wanna attack, I'll expect real examples, not the academic crap that
> most programming language theorists throw around.
> 
> --chet--
> 
> P.S.  I came back to CAML for personal programming in 1999, and after
> that four-year hiatus, during which I became a commercial JVM
> internals guy, as well as a commercial transaction-processing
> firefighter (think "Mr. Wolf" from _Pulp Fiction_).  So I think I have
> the experience to compare, and the verdict seems manifestly
> incontrovertible: Java/the JVM sux.
> 
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-- 
Gentoo Linux http://www.gentoo.org

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