From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) id AAA30904; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:41:50 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: pauillac.inria.fr: majordomo set sender to owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr using -f Received: from concorde.inria.fr (concorde.inria.fr [192.93.2.39]) by pauillac.inria.fr (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA30210 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:41:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.189]) by concorde.inria.fr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2INfmHd002567 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:41:48 +0100 Received: from [212.227.126.160] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1B4792-0004pl-00 for caml-list@inria.fr; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:41:48 +0100 Received: from [80.129.113.195] (helo=gate.gerd-stolpmann.de) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1B4791-00070H-00 for caml-list@inria.fr; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:41:47 +0100 Received: from ice.gerd-stolpmann.de (ice.gerd-stolpmann.de [192.168.0.13]) by gate.gerd-stolpmann.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id C87E156C0 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:41:46 +0100 (CET) Received: by ice.gerd-stolpmann.de (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 02BFEB035; Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:41:45 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: OCaml's Cathedral & Bazaar (was Re: [Caml-list] Completeness of "Unix" run-time library) From: Gerd Stolpmann To: caml-list@inria.fr In-Reply-To: <20040318151234.B21768@pauillac.inria.fr> References: <4059994E.2010802@socialtools.net> <20040318151234.B21768@pauillac.inria.fr> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1079653304.990.89.camel@ice.gerd-stolpmann.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:41:45 +0100 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:a6865a839c0178d9aa0ce41878507ea2 X-Miltered: at concorde by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Loop: caml-list@inria.fr X-Spam: no; 0.00; ocaml's:01 caml-list:01 run-time:01 gerd:01 stolpmann:01 delivers:99 dlls:01 urged:99 findlib:01 findlib:01 cpan:01 barrier:01 organises:99 policies:99 stdlib:01 Sender: owner-caml-list@pauillac.inria.fr Precedence: bulk X-Keywords: X-UID: 188 This whole discussion is interesting because it shows that the users of ocaml have expectations for a good language environment. There seems to be some confusion, however, that the core ocaml product is not a complete environment, and that third-party tools and libraries are needed. The confusion is that it becomes unclear who can be made responsible for improving the environment. The Unix module was mentioned as an example. For me, I am quite happy that the Cathedral limits itself, and that it does not try to incorporate more components than needed. There would be also lots of problems in a world where the Cathedral delivers all important components, e.g. it would be harder to get bugs fixed. So please, don't dream of that. It might turn into a nightmare. In the case of Unix, I do not see any advantages of developing improvements within the Cathedral, this can really be done on the Bazaar. Maybe there are some corner cases (e.g. IPv6 sockets) that would require cooperation, but my experience is that INRIA finally accepts good proposals (e.g. remember of DLLs, users urged INRIA to implement it). Of course, the Bazaar needs a bit more organisation, and as you know, I wrote software supporting this: Findlib and GODI. Findlib is mature software, even from a professional point of view, and many people are already using it. GODI is already usable. So the technical solutions exist (that means: THERE IS A CPAN FOR OCAML, although it uses a different implementation for a different language, and does not match C.*AN), and the remaining question is: Does the community accept it? I don't mean technical acceptance here, because this is usually not the barrier keeping people away when the software works, but acceptance in a social way: GODI would be accepted when it would be the usual way to install ocaml. Of course, this a quite ambitious goal, but also the natural one for such a project. I am glad to hear encouraging words from Xavier Leroy. In order to reach this goal, a number of questions should be answered (best as some kind of community process): - How can people participate (add packages, fix bugs, improve the base software)? - How can the quality be ensured? - How are decisions made? - How can the platform be kept open? My vision for GODI is that it limits itself to a platform for software authors, i.e. some kind of distribution channel, and organises things only where necessary (the question of policies). I don't want to build a second Cathedral that fixes the errors of the first. (So there will be place for an alternate stdlib if people want it, but it won't replace the official one.) Expect an announcement about a mailing list for the details of this discussion soon. Of course, we can already start on caml-list, it's you who decides. Gerd -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Gerd Stolpmann * Viktoriastr. 45 * 64293 Darmstadt * Germany gerd@gerd-stolpmann.de http://www.gerd-stolpmann.de ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------- To unsubscribe, mail caml-list-request@inria.fr Archives: http://caml.inria.fr Bug reports: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/caml-bugs FAQ: http://caml.inria.fr/FAQ/ Beginner's list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ocaml_beginners